OH-vur-BOH

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#51 Post by Shadowhntr »

I think the animal is dead as dead, even if the arrow doesn't pass through both sides, at least on a good hit. However, it benifits recovery by adding the opposite side hole for a better blood trail should the animal not fall within my sight. As far as a complete pass through that sticks in the ground after going through the animal, well thats just for my benefit, in wanting to re-use an arrow. :mrgreen:

Hows that pertain to the subject? Well to explain, I need to inject a bit of info I read on testing done with a chronograph by several fellas over on TG. I will spare details, but in the study, bows from 43 lbs to I think 55 lbs, had very little speed differences. By very little , im talking about 5-6 ft per second between the slowest bow and the fastest when same arrow and same guy was used. Numerous top brands of bows were used, as well as recurves and longbows. In essence....draw weight, make, type, mattered very little and all shot basically the same speeds with the same arrow. So before giving too much credit to higher poundage bows, maybe do some chronographing, and see for yourself. ..... this same phenomenon has been known for years now, but just not believed or acted upon by very many. Fact is, heavier bows do offer more energy for penatration and speed, but its so little difference that it takes high tech equipment to detect it, and its of little benifit. Ashby said as much, by comparing 80lb bow penetration percentages to that of 40 lb bow penetration percentages testing on aisiatic buffalo. His test showed both had the same failure rates with improper weighted arrows, and both had the same successful penetration rates for properly weighted arrows (FOC), which by the way was 100% success rate for both bow weights with proper and identical FOC % arrows......there were no difference between them. Like I said earlier somewhere, the bow is just the energizer of the lethal portion we call an arrow. Change arrow properties, not bow weights to increase penetration. Lighter bows do the exact same job as the heavier bows, but typically more accurately. Any difference you gain by using heavier bows is negligible.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Jose
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#52 Post by Jose »

Captainkirk wrote:
Flatline Bows LLC wrote:What a great thread!! You guys have some great information here. I will not claim to have any of the answers because I find that each bow has its own attitude. Frankly, I gave up on the arrow charts. I found that they were never accurate for true tuning of my bow setup. My limited experience really only comes from shooting bows I have built because they are the only ones I have really shot much since being an adult.
Good to have an expert weigh in! Do you find many people (newbies especially) overbow themselves, or do you think maybe they do, but you never hear the feedback?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I started out with heavier bows but after a shoulder surgery soon shot less poundage.
If I might ask, what caused the shoulder surgery? Was it archery or non-archery related? And if the latter, did archery make it worse?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I found that I was killing, just as dead, with my 50 or 51# as I had with my 60-70# bows. IMO a bow weight which is truly comfortable for someone to shoot, with a TUNED arrow and sharp broadhead make a deadly package.
Exactly my point. A sharp, properly-spined arrow from a well-tuned bow is just as deadly as one from a heavier bow in deer sized game (I will take exception for your elk because an elk, moose or bear is a different animal altogether than a deer. Elk and moose are huge framed, large boned animals, and a bear will have you for a snack), and more deadly if you can't shoot the heavy bow as well as a lighter one.
Let that sink in a minute, newbies...the quickest kill is the one in which a wickedly sharp arrow gets to the right spot, rather than a complete pass-thru in the not-so-right spot.
Thanks for the assumption Kirk but I am far from an expert!... ;) I would say that 90% of my customers are experienced in trad archery and already have a good grasp of what they can handle. The newbies to trad which buy my bows are usually receptive to my input on a recommendation for proper bow weight. The one benefit I have is I usually have a variety of bows at different weights around which they can try out. This allows them to experience shooting a bow which may be uncomfortable to them. I can only speak for me personally and will admit that I was over bowed when I started back into the trad. I originally injured my shoulder by dislocating it while playing softball. At that time I shot an 80# compound which did not help things. Gradually it became worse and worse. I transitioned to trad again and assumed that I could easily shoot a 70# bow and be fine. I continued to make my shoulder worse. It soon came time to have surgery and my doctor said I had a large hole in my rotator cuff and had a labrum tear. He performed surgery and told me if I tore it again he would not be able to fix it. He happened to shoot trad too and told me that I needed to shoot lighter weights or I could ultimately injure it and no longer be able to shoot. This was a wake up call...... :( I started shooting lighter weights and found that I did not have pain anymore. I also discovered that my form improved and was not near as sloppy as it was with a heavy bow. For me personally, I was over bowed. I think many people that transition from compound to trad can easily over bow themselves. I do have several good customers who shoot heavy bows. One purchased a 70# and then later an 86#. He has shot for many years and has absolutely perfect form every time. He is a phenomenal shot. I personally do not feel he is over bowed because he can shoot however long he wants without losing his form. I have seen other guys shoot a 45# bow and they struggle getting to anchor. I believe they were over bowed. I feel that there is no specific bow that is to heavy or to light, it just may be to heavy or to light for a particular person. Again, I am no expert, this is just my opinion from personal experience. I am just one of those guys that likes to sling arrows and kill food... :mrgreen: It took several years to find that comfort zone for a bow but now that I have a good idea, I just tweak it here and there for the occasion.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#53 Post by Captainkirk »

I've seen the same thing with some guys and high poundage bows. SOME guys! And therein lies the problem! Bows are intensely personal, much more so than guns. When a new archer sees old footage of Howard Hill or Fred Bear drawing an 80# bow...or maybe his granddad who's been shooting for half a century...he figures what's good for the goose is good for the gander and tries to emulate with an equally heavy bow. And then he wonders why he can't hit the broad side of a barn. If the new archer takes anything away from this thread, let it be this:

"One size does not fit all!"

I would strongly urge the new shooter to try as many different draw weights and bow styles as he or she can before dropping the dime. One style/weight will click with you, and odds are about 90% it won't be the first one you buy. That's why there are so many bows for sale cheap on eBay. You either end up with one hell of a collection or take your lumps on the re-sale.
Aim small, miss small!

woodsman
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#54 Post by woodsman »

I had a friend that had bowhunted white-tail deer successfully for many years. After awhile he joined an archery club and enjoyed shooting his compound bow at 3-D ranges.

I received a phone call from him one evening telling me of penetration problems during the archery season. I asked if he had changed anything? Yes... he had went from 2018 to 2114 arrows and Bear Broadheads to a very wide pencil point type broadhead.

He went back to the old set-up and filled his tag the next evening..

A few years later he told me of penetration problems again. He had changed broad heads again.. But the advertisements said it had taken more animals than any other broad head??

Another friend, shooting a 42# longbow shot a 200# dressed weight white tail.. Arrow stopped at the feathers on the EXIT side of the deer. 35 yards.

The arrow/broad head/tune will make more difference than bow weight..

chris

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#55 Post by Shadowhntr »

woodsman wrote:I had a friend that had bowhunted white-tail deer successfully for many years. After awhile he joined an archery club and enjoyed shooting his compound bow at 3-D ranges.

I received a phone call from him one evening telling me of penetration problems during the archery season. I asked if he had changed anything? Yes... he had went from 2018 to 2114 arrows and Bear Broadheads to a very wide pencil point type broadhead.

He went back to the old set-up and filled his tag the next evening..

A few years later he told me of penetration problems again. He had changed broad heads again.. But the advertisements said it had taken more animals than any other broad head??

Another friend, shooting a 42# longbow shot a 200# dressed weight white tail.. Arrow stopped at the feathers on the EXIT side of the deer. 35 yards.

The arrow/broad head/tune will make more difference than bow weight..

chris

.....that says it all. Thanks for that input Chris.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#56 Post by Captainkirk »

Yep, thanks for the input, Chris.
And that backs up the whole point of this thread. It does not take a bow that draws heavier than you can comfortably command to ethically and humanely take a deer. In fact, the inverse is true; it is easier, more ethical and more humane to take a deer with a bow that is of a draw weight you can control and command.
Kinda puts a new spin on it, doesn't it?
Aim small, miss small!

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#57 Post by Captainkirk »

TTT
Time to resurrect this age-old topic for the newer members of the forum.
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stumper
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#58 Post by stumper »

Heavy bows are awesome until you get a shoulder injury. I have seen complete pass through with 30 lbs bow. Sharp broad head, right arrow, good shot placement, and consistent form. I can say now that I shoot bows in the low to mid 40s that I enjoy shooting more, it’s easier on my body, I can hold at draw for extended periods of time, and my form/accuracy has improved. Love light to medium tackle.
Nothing clears a troubled mind like shooting a bow.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#59 Post by Captainkirk »

For many, they are afraid of the image of a lighter bow, as if it makes them a 'candy-ass' hunter or something. I can tell you guys with all certainty my accuracy did not start to gel until I began daily practice with my glass 35# 'kiddie bow' and later with the Tamerlane (35#). The formula works like this: Ease of draw/hold equals better form and fewer errors/physical ramifications, which allows longer and more productive shooting sessions...which then serves to compound the above formula. Actually, you can shoot any bow you feel comfortable with while hunting. You're only going to draw and shoot maybe once or twice a day. It's the form and muscle memory that you want to work on in your practice sessions, which is basically everything pre-season. Even with my very reasonable 45# Bears, I can feel the fatigue set in, and watch the groups start to open up after 3 or 4 dozen shots. Not so with the Tamerlane. I've shot that bow for a solid hour and felt no after-effects at all. Of course, you have to weigh draw weight against diminishing returns in arrow trajectory to a point. But in the stand, what matters is instinctive muscle memory and shot placement, both which can only be obtained by long, regular practice hours. For anyone frustrated with their hunting performance, this is really the way to go; daily practice with a very light bow right up to a few weeks before season opener, then begin short practice sessions with your hunting weight bow to re-calibrate your brain and tone your bow muscles toward your heavier bow.
Aim small, miss small!

Jose
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#60 Post by Jose »

Captainkirk wrote:For many, they are afraid of the image of a lighter bow, as if it makes them a 'candy-ass' hunter or something. I can tell you guys with all certainty my accuracy did not start to gel until I began daily practice with my glass 35# 'kiddie bow' and later with the Tamerlane (35#). The formula works like this: Ease of draw/hold equals better form and fewer errors/physical ramifications, which allows longer and more productive shooting sessions...which then serves to compound the above formula. Actually, you can shoot any bow you feel comfortable with while hunting. You're only going to draw and shoot maybe once or twice a day. It's the form and muscle memory that you want to work on in your practice sessions, which is basically everything pre-season. Even with my very reasonable 45# Bears, I can feel the fatigue set in, and watch the groups start to open up after 3 or 4 dozen shots. Not so with the Tamerlane. I've shot that bow for a solid hour and felt no after-effects at all. Of course, you have to weigh draw weight against diminishing returns in arrow trajectory to a point. But in the stand, what matters is instinctive muscle memory and shot placement, both which can only be obtained by long, regular practice hours. For anyone frustrated with their hunting performance, this is really the way to go; daily practice with a very light bow right up to a few weeks before season opener, then begin short practice sessions with your hunting weight bow to re-calibrate your brain and tone your bow muscles toward your heavier bow.
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