OH-vur-BOH

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Kybownut
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#16 Post by Kybownut »

In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#17 Post by Captainkirk »

Kybownut wrote:In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm
The problem is, Johnny, that the Tamerlane is shooting carbons with 100gr field points that are ultra-light...somewhere in the area of 5.5gpi IIRC....as opposed to the Sage's much heavier cedar arrows (7.5-ish gpi?) with 125gr FP's.
To do an accurate comparison, both bows would have to shoot a comparably weighted (compensated) arrow and they should also be chrono'd as well as having a penetration test. I will look into this and see what I can figure out over the next couple of weeks?
I already know the carbons off the Tamerlane don't penetrate the foam target at Bass Pro near as much as the cedars off my Grizzly or K-mag, that much for sure. But you're right; some sort of test is in the works!
But again; how comparable is a penetration test on a foam target butt compared to a live animal (tissue) with a razor sharp broadhead?
Aim small, miss small!

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#18 Post by Shadowhntr »

I think those sort of test are all over you tube. What many people dont realize, is nothing we have available causes the same reactions as animals in the flesh and bone in dealing with an arrow strike. Thats the whole reason Dr Ashby used real live animals over 20 years of testing to gain the conclusions. What foam targets produce, was found to be vastly different then live animal situations. Many test in foam show lighter faster arrows penatrating better then heavier slower arrows out of the same bow. But again, foam designed to stop arrows by forced friction is not the same as flesh and blood on the hoof.

While on the subject of using gpp as a formula in dealing with bow weight. Its really only good for a small range of bow weights. With this formula, the heavier the bow, the heavier the arrow, and the lighter the bow the lighter the arrow. That means an 80 lb bow would, in using the popular 10 gr per pound, take an 800 gr arrow. Fine enough, but do you think its over kill on penatration for deer, and could use a lighter arrow? 10gpp is said to be for deer right?....but what about the 30 lb bow that is legal here in my State? That would make it use a 300 gr arrow. I dont think that combo is going to work for deer well at all..penatration is going to be an issue. From all we know, the heavier draw the bow, the lighter arrow and less foc it would take to fully penetrate a deer, and the lighter the bows draw, the more arrow weight and foc is needed to fully penatrate a deer. The 10gpp formula is flawed when it comes to using it across the board. That is why I choose to use the formula Dr Ashby set forth, so I know that no matter what, im going to get full penatration 100% of the time, not 75% or 90%....but 100% of the time, even with my 42lb bow.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#19 Post by Shadowhntr »

Captainkirk wrote:
Kybownut wrote:In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm
The problem is, Johnny, that the Tamerlane is shooting carbons with 100gr field points that are ultra-light...somewhere in the area of 5.5gpi IIRC....as opposed to the Sage's much heavier cedar arrows (7.5-ish gpi?) with 125gr FP's.
To do an accurate comparison, both bows would have to shoot a comparably weighted (compensated) arrow and they should also be chrono'd as well as having a penetration test. I will look into this and see what I can figure out over the next couple of weeks?
I already know the carbons off the Tamerlane don't penetrate the foam target at Bass Pro near as much as the cedars off my Grizzly or K-mag, that much for sure. But you're right; some sort of test is in the works!
But again; how comparable is a penetration test on a foam target butt compared to a live animal (tissue) with a razor sharp broadhead?

Got more probs then that...spine is the big one. If kirk uses the tamerlane arrow for both bows, im going to say the 35lb bow will out penetrate the 55lb badlly. That arrow will loose all its energy out of the 55 being way to limber.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#20 Post by Captainkirk »

OK, Jason...you are going to have to educate me. You are speaking in terms of GPP (grains per pound?) I'm assuming we are referring to pounds of draw weight? I am used to using GPI (grains per inch) of arrow length...how do the two correlate (if at all)? While somewhat familiar with Dr. Ashby's work, I'm not totally up to speed on all of it. Can you give us a one or two line summary for the sake of this thread?
Aim small, miss small!

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#21 Post by Captainkirk »

Shadowhntr wrote: Got more probs then that...spine is the big one. If kirk uses the tamerlane arrow for both bows, im going to say the 35lb bow will out penetrate the 55lb badlly. That arrow will loose all its energy out of the 55 being way to limber.
Tamerlane arrows are WAY too weak for the Sage...500 spine.
The cedars I was using on the Sage were 55-60 IIRC
Aim small, miss small!

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#22 Post by Shadowhntr »

Sorry cap, I'll try and keep it to bow draw weight. I get side tracked i know! Before I do, yes the tamerlane is legal here in Kansas. C'mon over, i'll hook you up on a weekend hunt. I hope you can use a climber?
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#23 Post by Shadowhntr »

graps wrote:The knights of the round table were sitting around discussing how heavy a bow a man should shoot .

Arthur said that it should be at least 80#


Lancelot said no less than 100#

This went on for a while and the they asked Percy what he thought ; he said " I find anything over 20# blows up my rubber tips . " :(

Did anyone else catch this? :lol: You are too funny Dale! Leave it to you! :lol: :lol:
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Kybownut
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#24 Post by Kybownut »

Shadowhntr wrote:
graps wrote:The knights of the round table were sitting around discussing how heavy a bow a man should shoot .

Arthur said that it should be at least 80#


Lancelot said no less than 100#

This went on for a while and the they asked Percy what he thought ; he said " I find anything over 20# blows up my rubber tips . " :(

Did anyone else catch this? :lol: You are too funny Dale! Leave it to you! :lol: :lol:
I done told you he ain't just right! Lol

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Graps
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#25 Post by Graps »

It really just boils down to male eago .
I used to shoot 80# back when I was in my late 20s .
I also was shooting 3 - 4 hours a day , so my muscles were in great shape .
I really enjoyed it when someone would try and shoot my bow .
Now my 60# bow has been hanging on the bow rack for about a year . Part of the reason is , I can't find 105# woods , but mostly because it isn't nessasary to have that much draw weight and it hurts my bow hand from the pressure caused by a medical issue .
I guess in my opinion , don't shoot to light of bow , whitch I feel is less than 40# for deer sized animals but if you can handle a heavy draw , please be honest with yourself and be sure you can make the shot .
Also , don't get hung up with the mathematics of the energy and realize this is traditional archery .
KISS ; Keep It Simple Stupid .
"Maybe the truly handicapped people are the ones that don't need God as much." ~ Joni Eareckson Tada

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