Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

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stumper
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Re: I have a quandry

#1 Post by stumper »

I’m gonna push back just a little here. What about people who shoot with a non dominant eye? What about people who shoot three under instinctually? Personally I can shoot gap three under and stack the arrows and three under instinct and get pretty similar results despite being left eye dominate at the distances you mention. Now, how I shoot is three under looking at target and just so happens I can see the arrow tip in my peripheral as a brief check. What makes three under inferior or less traditional, when that’s how many cultures (some native Americans shot)? My push back is this, archery is about what works, not right or wrong. Bows that are properly set up for three under and tillered for it are gonna be just as quiet. Are there exceptions, sure, I’m sure that your sons k mag may be louder Kirk. But I also think that noise could be eliminated. Whether you use gap or instinct three under has many advantages: arrow closer to eye has intrinsic benefits whether instinct or not, stronger hold as fingers are together, can help eliminate finger pinch in shorter bows, IMO easier to get a cleaner release. Papa bear said “the history of the bow and arrow is the history of man kind” in this spirit we are all different, but yet all inseparably linked together. No, I say split is not necessarily the truest form of archery. Personally every shot I take 10 and under is instinctually shot anyway but still three under. Split is not comfortable for me never has been. Archery is about what works. You says 8” accuracy is acceptable, and you are right that may produce a kill, 8” is not acceptable to me. Also as a note for those who do use the arrow as quazi sight, how in the world is this even close to using a compound??? That’s like saying to a gun hunter like myself, who hunts with open sights “hey man them open sights are cheating just like using a scope” lol. This is my dissenting opinion. I will accept your challenge shadow to do more instinctual, but I’m gonna stick with my three under hold. Lastly, I would just add that instinct, gap, crawl, three under, split are all trad. You can say do archery as it was meant to be done, and i would say then good luck with your primitive self bow and gut string this season. My point is we each draw the line as to what is trad ourselves. The hold of the string I.e split or three under are typically associated with a method of shooting I.e gap or instinctive, but they don’t have to be. The flaw in the arguments above is that three under is made out to be inseparable from aiming. Three under is just a way to hold the string, how you aim is a separate battle altogether. Anyone else shoot some instinctual three under?
Nothing clears a troubled mind like shooting a bow.

stumper
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Re: I have a quandry

#2 Post by stumper »

Well for starters.... I’m not upset or worked up. Just putting in my two cents on the matter, which when I read your post it seemed to suggest what I put in my post. I can and do keep my cool, as I am now and would suggest that your typical experience with officers would hold to true for me. However I did have a dissenting opinion which I made in my post. If I have misread your post and mistook its meaning, Ill reread it and report back.
Nothing clears a troubled mind like shooting a bow.

stumper
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Re: I have a quandry

#3 Post by stumper »

You can ask any of the other people that work with me, that no matter how fiercely I disagree with something (which happens a lot in law enforcement) I am still very much their friend afterwards and do not think any less of them just because we disagree on something. Jason I’ll be honest with you. I am a very opinionated outspoken person and I make no attempts to hide it or apologies for it. With that said, when I am wrong I am wrong and i have no trouble admitting it. For some reason or another after carefully reviewing your post, I think I totally missed the point of your initial post. Perhaps I saw what I wanted, or just grabbed at little phrases that seemed to jump out at me. I therefore recend my dissenting opinion but shall leave in tact as proof of my humanity. I see your post for what it is now, and I’ll take you up on your completely instinctive challenge. I do love a challenge. The game is afoot.
Nothing clears a troubled mind like shooting a bow.

stumper
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Re: I have a quandry

#4 Post by stumper »

Interesting Kirk. I didn’t not know you too were left eye dominant. Well I’m gonna have to learn to shoot all over again anyways with my mission try a left handed bow. It can’t hurt too much, but if i start missing the target altogether and busting arrows, I’ll be sending you and Jason the bill for new arrows :lol:
Nothing clears a troubled mind like shooting a bow.

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Shadowhntr
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Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#5 Post by Shadowhntr »

It amazes me at just how popular three under is anymore over split! In my mind, at least at one time, I'd of felt things were largely the flip side with at least the hunters. The 3 under crowd in existence then, were mainly at the target ranges. Nothing wrong at all with it, it's just how you hold the string and aim, but its sure way popular nowdays over my old fashioned "split finger full on instinctive" method of shooting!

In my mind, I'm thinking this is largely due to the vast majority of modern archery converts (that are now in the traditional game and greatly appreciated I might add!) who have always felt they needed an eye to sight sighting system in order to be accurate. Its certainly the quickest way to obtain accuracy, so that's really appealing. And like it's been for a while now, is hugely popular with the activly score keeping target crowds and seekers of tight groupings.
I'd like to take just a pause here and speak specifically to the hunters of deer and large game...to have one ask themselves why they choose traditional gear over modern archery to begin. Next, I'd encourage that at some point, to consider moving to instinctive shooting as it should be done...not just happlessly launching billions of arrows towards a target until you miraculously somehow get good. Like anything else, there are methods and ways to go about true development of instinctual shooting. How is it some people can do it, and others claim they cannot? I'll tell why, it's because they do not understand the true way to it and have had poor instruction if any at all, about it. Another few cases could involve those who flat do not believe they can do it In their own minds and are thus hindered, and then those who probably don't have a gift or true drive for archery at all In the first place. In normal, We all have the same eyes, brain, arms, back, and motor skills. What one man can do another can do. It is about setting your mind to accomplishing it, and getting truly good learnable information and instruction. Now I don't think we are all going to be the next Howard Hill, or Ron LaClair, or a champion of sorts. But I do feel every one of us has the ability or could develope the ability to keep arrows in an 8 inch circle at 12 or 15 yards. That kind of shooting will kill deer every time. Somewhere along the way, an implantation of "must needs" pin point accuracy in order to take deer or large game has been planted in our brains. While I agree that better accuracy can't hurt, I also know that dead is dead is dead. By the same token I also know a pretty large number of very good 3 under shooters who still do not hit that 8 inch sweet spot. Thats indication there is more to putting a killing shot on a deer then being a crack shot, no? Lol! I mean we are talking about 8 inches....my point is that nerves are nerves and have to be delt with as another step. And the method of how you shoot your bow at a deer will or will not work depending upon how well you hold to your form while under nerves, pressure, and adrenaline of the moment. It matters not the method you use either, it's all the same exact challenge to hold it all together! My point here is this... on paper 3 under Gap and it's relatives are likely more accurate and quicker/easier to develop then instinctive method. But for big game hunting, where an 8 inch hit is equally lethal anywhere within it, that kind of accuracy isn't needed for us who hold the primitive weapon of choice the stick and string. 8 inches is not unreasonable to hit at 12 or 15 yards... which is the typical deer shot distance for many many folks.

I challenge the 3 under crawlers, walkers, and gappers. Move out of your comfy warm spot, and take on the challenge of learning the art of instinctual hunting method over this next season. If it means you become limited to 12 or 15 yards to kill in? Who cares? Why are you in this game to begin with? Limiting yourself more and more...right? What's your next conquest, an 80 yard consistent bullseye? C'mon, just go get your compound! Instead, why not think about taking the challenge in a new direction? Do something you may have previously thought you could never do. You already got what you have right now...isnt there more to take on?

My challenge stands to all those gappers, crawlers, and walkers. See if in one years time, you can with reasonable consistency place 6 arrows in an 8 inch circle at 12 or 15 yards using true instinctive methods. I'll even throw in on the deal as much help as I can muster....and I've had decent luck at training a few people so I don't know why a few more would make it any different? Who will venture out? Who will challenge themselves? What one man can do, another can do.....practice to kill a big game animal instinctively.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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Shadowhntr
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Re: Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#6 Post by Shadowhntr »

Dave first of all you need to calm down a second and re read what I have written. No man can see what's right before their very eyes if the mind is already clouded with perceptions that do not even enter in on the post.
First, my challenge isn't to a three under shooter....its to crawlers, walkers, and gappers. That being said, i never said instinctive shooting is better or more traditional...and certainly did not say that's how it's meant to be done. Instead I challenged those shooters, to take on instinctive shooting as a method and a personal challenge, and done with the right approach ....or in other words, done how instinctive shooting should be done. Not that instinctive is "how trad archery should be done". In fact I reinforced the idea that in many cases instinctive shooting is often less accurate.
8 inches may not be good enough for you but it is a perfect hit for any deer every single time. Anyone that kills any amount of deer with arrows knows this. The heart itself is 4" and the best part of the lungs are double the hearts size. As I stated earlier...the infusion into our minds today is the need to own pin point accuracy, when its neither absolutely needed nor is it unethical to use an 8" target aquisition pattern. 8 inches is all lung baby and the best part of them.

Not once have I now or ever seperated any form of aiming a trad bow from being trad. If you can get past your initial displeasure with my posting, you would see it's a challenge to those who have already mastered the gap and it's relatives. If you are knocking out bullseyes at 50 yards, what's next? Boredom? My point about grabbing the compound for 80 yard shots isn't comparing trad to them...its about the ridiculousness of it in a hunting application...something the wheel crowd actually aim at in hunting as a goal. I'm saying if you are that good already to do such traditionaly....why not challenge self to a different angle that can help sooth the need for a bigger challenge. That's all I'm saying. Has not one thing to do with separation, what's best, or what's supposedly right or wrong. It has to do with focusing on a self challenge. That's it...nothing more nothing less.
I'm a bit surprised this all wasn't apparent to you being a police officer. My experience with most officers, is they note details and keep their cool. I don't know why this voluntary challenge would upset you so?

Added...i can see where in a spot or two my post could be construed to mean all 3 under uses aiming points. Sorry for that lack of ability to bring the right message across. Again the challenge isn't about holding the string....the challenge is aiming methods and if I wasn't recovering from flu and a clouded mind id of probably realized sooner id of been far ahead to make a different thread for this...ugh.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Carpdaddy
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Re: Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#7 Post by Carpdaddy »

I know that it’s weird that I shoot both ways changing to use one way almost exclusively during hunting season. But it works for me. I have mentioned this a few times through the years here but I really don’t find much difference. I did also mention last year that I finally caught on as to why it didn’t matter much. I just instinctively anchor with middle finger at corner of mouth when shooting split, and index finger there when three under. The arrow is usually about my stash either way.
Concerning the instinctive shooting; I can’t seem to learn any other method. I have great respect for those who can gap, string walk, or use the point of the arrow. I have shot with some and enjoy watching them. So the challenge to me would be to learn one of those methods just to have something to play with over the off season. I have watched videos and people do it but when I try it doesn’t work so well. I’m probably wrong but my thinking is that it would be harder to learn one of those ways that instinctive.?? Whatever we do if it’s got to do with shooting the bow I’ll probably enjoy it.

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Shadowhntr
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Re: Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#8 Post by Shadowhntr »

Well fellas....ive learned to move post....now I gotta figure out how to keep from messing the order up....sorry. learning here.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Captainkirk
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Re: Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#9 Post by Captainkirk »

Shadowhntr wrote:Well fellas....ive learned to move post....now I gotta figure out how to keep from messing the order up....sorry. learning here.
Ah...but you only moved the last page. Go stand in the corner, you dunce! LOL :lol:
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Shadowhntr
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Re: Shadows 3under to instinctive challenge.

#10 Post by Shadowhntr »

Lol...i messed up by trying to first copy mine over to start....then I deleted some of my post....THEN I figured out how to REALLY do it, and by then it was all mess up. Lol...I know now though how to keep er straight.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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