OH-vur-BOH

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Captainkirk
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OH-vur-BOH

#1 Post by Captainkirk » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Well, that's how you pronounce it, anyway.
Over-bow.
A very touchy subject amongst bowhunters.
Enough has been written on this subject to fill the library of congress on other sites, with opposing sides frothing at the mouth in defense of their position...for a variety of differing, yet valid reasons.
In one camp, you have the heavy bow advocates, on the other side the light=better gang.
The HB boys believe you should hunt using the heaviest bow you can handle for kinetic energy, penetration, and bone-splitting power, while the LightSpeed gang believes any bow of legal hunting weight provides the shooter with more accuracy, better control, and the precision to put the arrow where it can do it's best job as a result. While a vast chasm lies between these two camps, let's take the time over the next few days to break this topic down and digest it thoroughly.
But first, an impromptu vote.....where do you stand on the issue?
Aim small, miss small!

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Graps
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#2 Post by Graps » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:09 pm

Well I was at Jose's awhile back and we were doing some chronograph testing between carbon cores and action boo .
He was wondering if the price difference is worth the speed .
Now to the interesting part .
The bow he made for me is 43#@28" .
I have a Dwyer Dauntless longbow that is 55#@28" .
Both bows shoot the same arrow so this is an optimal comparisons .
The Flatline shot 164 fps .
The Dauntless shot 170 fps .
That's 6 fps faster with 12# more draw weight .
Is that worth the extra effort ?
As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong direction.
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Matthew 10:31
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Kybownut
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#3 Post by Kybownut » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:26 pm

I think the heaviest bow you can handle is better, not necessary but better! The problem is just because they can pull a heavy bow back they think they can handle it. I can pull a 65 pound bow back but about 45, 46 pound is what I can handle. Maybe 50 if I shot a lot. I wouldn't have any problem hunting with a 40 pounder though

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#4 Post by Captainkirk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:37 am

graps wrote:Well I was at Jose's awhile back and we were doing some chronograph testing between carbon cores and action boo .
He was wondering if the price difference is worth the speed .
Now to the interesting part .
The bow he made for me is 43#@28" .
I have a Dwyer Dauntless longbow that is 55#@28" .
Both bows shoot the same arrow so this is an optimal comparisons .
The Flatline shot 164 fps .
The Dauntless shot 170 fps .
That's 6 fps faster with 12# more draw weight .
Is that worth the extra effort ?
Really interesting observation, graps!
It doesn't always sound like it makes sense, sometimes you need to see the chrony to believe it.
Aim small, miss small!

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#5 Post by Captainkirk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:38 am

Kybownut wrote:I think the heaviest bow you can handle is better, not necessary but better! The problem is just because they can pull a heavy bow back they think they can handle it. I can pull a 65 pound bow back but about 45, 46 pound is what I can handle. Maybe 50 if I shot a lot. I wouldn't have any problem hunting with a 40 pounder though
Exactly. I will discuss this in detail later....
Aim small, miss small!

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#6 Post by Captainkirk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:18 am

First, an observation.
Most of us came from modern archery...compound bows. I will use myself as an example of what not to do.
After leaving trad archery behind during my college years, I got back into archery hunting in the mid-'90s. I purchased a PSE round wheel compound in the 55-65 range and learned to shoot quite well using fingers. It was very forgiving and after starting out in the 55# range with 65% let-off. Some years later I decided to 'move up' into the modern world and bough another compound, this one a single cam version in the 70# range, this one at 85% let-off.
So, when I decided to get back into trad, I convinced myself that a recurve in the 55# range sounded reasonable, since state minimums for deer-sized game is 40#. Heck, I was shooting a 70# compound, right?
What I didn't realize is that a 55# bow with 65% let-off equates to around 20# at full draw. 70# at 85% equates to around 11# at full draw. And with my new recurve, 55# at full draw is.....55#.
Sure, I could draw it and shoot. Yes, I could even hit what I was aiming at after a fashion. So far, so good.
Then, here comes the 'baggage'.
Numb finger tips on the first and second finger. Tendonitis in my right elbow followed by severe pain in my right shoulder and wrist pain on the bow hand.
Geez...they didn't tell me about this.
After putting the bow down for almost two months to heal, I started in again training with my Baby Ben 35# glass bow. Surprise; no pain. I could shoot for up to an hour a night with no repercussions. So I start shooting the Sage again, guess what? A 15 minute session is OK. Anything over that and the old symptoms start creeping back in. So, my body is trying desperately to tell me something...just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. Could I hunt with it? Of course! You're lucky if you can get off a shot in a day, and even if you take a half-dozen to warm up, that's fine. But here's the catch-22; in order to be a deadly shot, you need to practice. Preferably with the exact rig you're gonna hunt with. And there's the rub; if you can't practice, you won't be in top form. If you're not in top form, you won't put the arrow where it needs to go with surgical precision. If you don't put the arrow where it needs to go, it doesn't matter how heavy of a bow you're shooting; non-lethal is non-lethal. Never mind the fact that your backyard Bambi is totally stationary, doesn't ever jump the string, and patiently waits while you move around lining up that perfect shot. Now the picture starts to come into focus....you need to be the best possible shot you can possibly be, and that includes not being able to handle a bow, but rather, being able to dominate it. And this goes straight back to what Johnny said earlier:

The problem is just because they can pull a heavy bow back they think they can handle it.
Aim small, miss small!

Kybownut
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#7 Post by Kybownut » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:49 pm

Well said capn

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#8 Post by Shadowhntr » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:27 pm

Though I love to practice and shoot targets, my whole goal is to be the best I can be while hunting. Hunting is the essence of me shooting any kind of weapon.

As for heavy or light bows, id say im actually open and fine with both, provided there are some things that are considered by the hypothetical archer and followed.

The bow is just the energizer of the lethal portion we call the arrow. That arrows lethality depends heavily upon the broadhead. In a round about way, the broadhead is what does the actual killing. True, without something to stabilize the head, it might get difficult to kill a deer with it alone. But, with a shaft attached , its not that far fetched to think killing would be very possible with shaft and broadhead together, even apart from the bow. A bow alone and apart from the arrow, would make for a pretty flimsy deer killing stick. My point is, there are a number of ways to energize and put mobility to a lethal projectile. The large dart energized with the atlatl, the spear with the arm, the arrow with a bow. In every instance, the projectile is the most important for killing...the energizer itself can be changed easily and is not bound to one thing. The projectile, only changes size, per the efficiency of the energizer.

So, for effectiveness for killing, it makes little difference if a 45lb longbow or a 70lb longbow is used to energize the lethal projectile. There is only a 25 lb thrust difference...and if you think about it, that really isnt that much. That is the same amount of difference as me chucking a spear with my arm, and kirk chucking a spear with his arm. :lol: The difference is going to be minimal. That little difference can, and probably should be made up for in the case of the lighter weight bow, by using a tiny bit heavier projectile. It dont have to be a pound difference. ...we are talking about 100- 200 grains. 7000 grains is a pound, 3500 is a half pound, 1750 is a quarter of a pound, 875 gr is 1/8 of a pound, 437.5 grains is 1/16 of a pound, 218.75 grains is 1/32 of a pound, 109.375 is 1/64 of a pound. Most guys have a hissy thinking about increasing from 500 grain to 650 grain arrows. You are talking about between 1/32 and 1/ 64 of a pound increase. Think about dividing up a pound into 32 or 64 equal portions...thats pretty light portions.

In any case, you can see, to me the bow weight is a very minor portion of the killing machine, be it light or heavy. The arrow, is what will make the biggest difference. However, there does come a point where light can be too light, and heavy can be too heavy. Like has been said, the union of bow and arrow, must remain lethal, and accurate.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#9 Post by Shadowhntr » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:44 pm

Take a look at TV bowhunters. Watch the penetration of 90% of their hits, and it looks like 2/3 of the arrow is still sticking out the entrance side. Most of these yay-whos are shooting 70lb high performance compound bows.

Now watch my arrow strike, with a 42 or 45 lb longbow, and watch it disappear into the deer every single time, and out the other side......

Nothing wrong mechanically with their bows....its their arrow set-up thats the problem. The lethality of the projectile is compromised in some way. More draw weight, nor added speed will do it...., an arrow/broadhead revamp is needed.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#10 Post by Carpdaddy » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:04 pm

Amen Shadow!

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