OH-vur-BOH

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Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#46 Post by Captainkirk »

Shadowhntr wrote:This is really good stuff. Its great to compile all these years of experience together, to begin to see an agreement form across this board. Looks to me, that everone has leaned from approximately 35lb-50lb, as being adequtely lethal by our own hands combined with State law practices. Looks like most of us arent afraid a bit to hunt with our lighter bows.
Jason, I questioned my own judgment when I first bought my used Griz, 45 @ 28", wondering if I was walking the tightrope between "lethal" and "barely adequate". I have since bought two more hunting bows in that same draw weight (the K-Hunter and the K-Mag) because it suits me so much better than that 55# Sage. I no longer question any of those bows' ability to do the job if I do mine.
In fact, I'm considering a lower-poundage set of limbs for the Sage as well.
Not everyone is Arnold Schwarzenegger and we should not be afraid to admit it.
I lied to myself for two months about that Sage being "just fine" until it called me out.
Aim small, miss small!

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#47 Post by Shadowhntr »

Kirk, Ain't it peculiar the way they do that very thing!(calling us out) ;)

My youngest son, Wyatt, has a Sage also. It was his first good trad bow he purchased .... a 40lb @ 28". We weighed his limbs out to be 44lb at 28". I wish I had a penny for every arrow that kid has put through that thing. Now that he owns his maddog, the Sage is back in the same "boat" as it was when he first bought it.....being his carp hunting bow! Man he sure does like it though. I shot it alot too. Its dead in the hand as can be, decently fast, accurate as all get out. He's still pretty attached!
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#48 Post by Captainkirk »

Shadowhntr wrote:Kirk, Ain't it peculiar the way they do that very thing!(calling us out) ;)
Well, ask 'em to make a liar outta ya, and they generally oblige.....sorta like women.
Aim small, miss small!

Jose
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#49 Post by Jose »

What a great thread!! You guys have some great information here. I will not claim to have any of the answers because I find that each bow has its own attitude. Frankly, I gave up on the arrow charts. I found that they were never accurate for true tuning of my bow setup. My limited experience really only comes from shooting bows I have built because they are the only ones I have really shot much since being an adult. I have discovered most people that shoot my bows have to use a much heavier spined arrow than the charts say. I am guessing it has to do with the design of my bow limbs. I follow the rule of thumb that my bows perform best with arrows from the 8-12 grains per pound. I think a key point is the arrow ABSOLUTELY must be tuned for the specific bow. I have built two bows out of similar woods at the same poundage which shot optimal with different spined arrows. Makes me scratch my head sometimes but we are dealing with wood...right? I tend to prefer around 10 grains per pound with an extremely sharp broadhead. I have not killed a ton of animals but the ones I have penetrated through both sides. Except one, which I hit a shoulder blade....... The buck I shot last year was less than 20 yards but I was pretty high in a tree. My shot entered along the spine and exited into the front armpit and leg. My shots are not always perfectly broadside or quartering away but are ethical shots in my mind. Somehow I just know at the time if the shot placement is there or not. However most of my shots are 20 yards or less simply because I place my stands or blinds at those ranges. It works for me so that is what I do. I started out with heavier bows but after a shoulder surgery soon shot less poundage. I found that I was killing, just as dead, with my 50 or 51# as I had with my 60-70# bows. IMO a bow weight which is truly comfortable for someone to shoot, with a TUNED arrow and sharp broadhead make a deadly package. I did build a different bow for my upcoming elk hunt though which is 58#. This is heavier than I normally use simply because it is a bigger animal and I may have a shot opportunity at closer to 30 yards. Don't know if I need the extra pounds but I figured it cant hurt.....as long as the arrow is properly TUNED for the bow.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#50 Post by Captainkirk »

Flatline Bows LLC wrote:What a great thread!! You guys have some great information here. I will not claim to have any of the answers because I find that each bow has its own attitude. Frankly, I gave up on the arrow charts. I found that they were never accurate for true tuning of my bow setup. My limited experience really only comes from shooting bows I have built because they are the only ones I have really shot much since being an adult.
Good to have an expert weigh in! Do you find many people (newbies especially) overbow themselves, or do you think maybe they do, but you never hear the feedback?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I started out with heavier bows but after a shoulder surgery soon shot less poundage.
If I might ask, what caused the shoulder surgery? Was it archery or non-archery related? And if the latter, did archery make it worse?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I found that I was killing, just as dead, with my 50 or 51# as I had with my 60-70# bows. IMO a bow weight which is truly comfortable for someone to shoot, with a TUNED arrow and sharp broadhead make a deadly package.
Exactly my point. A sharp, properly-spined arrow from a well-tuned bow is just as deadly as one from a heavier bow in deer sized game (I will take exception for your elk because an elk, moose or bear is a different animal altogether than a deer. Elk and moose are huge framed, large boned animals, and a bear will have you for a snack), and more deadly if you can't shoot the heavy bow as well as a lighter one.
Let that sink in a minute, newbies...the quickest kill is the one in which a wickedly sharp arrow gets to the right spot, rather than a complete pass-thru in the not-so-right spot.
Aim small, miss small!

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#51 Post by Shadowhntr »

I think the animal is dead as dead, even if the arrow doesn't pass through both sides, at least on a good hit. However, it benifits recovery by adding the opposite side hole for a better blood trail should the animal not fall within my sight. As far as a complete pass through that sticks in the ground after going through the animal, well thats just for my benefit, in wanting to re-use an arrow. :mrgreen:

Hows that pertain to the subject? Well to explain, I need to inject a bit of info I read on testing done with a chronograph by several fellas over on TG. I will spare details, but in the study, bows from 43 lbs to I think 55 lbs, had very little speed differences. By very little , im talking about 5-6 ft per second between the slowest bow and the fastest when same arrow and same guy was used. Numerous top brands of bows were used, as well as recurves and longbows. In essence....draw weight, make, type, mattered very little and all shot basically the same speeds with the same arrow. So before giving too much credit to higher poundage bows, maybe do some chronographing, and see for yourself. ..... this same phenomenon has been known for years now, but just not believed or acted upon by very many. Fact is, heavier bows do offer more energy for penatration and speed, but its so little difference that it takes high tech equipment to detect it, and its of little benifit. Ashby said as much, by comparing 80lb bow penetration percentages to that of 40 lb bow penetration percentages testing on aisiatic buffalo. His test showed both had the same failure rates with improper weighted arrows, and both had the same successful penetration rates for properly weighted arrows (FOC), which by the way was 100% success rate for both bow weights with proper and identical FOC % arrows......there were no difference between them. Like I said earlier somewhere, the bow is just the energizer of the lethal portion we call an arrow. Change arrow properties, not bow weights to increase penetration. Lighter bows do the exact same job as the heavier bows, but typically more accurately. Any difference you gain by using heavier bows is negligible.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

Jose
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#52 Post by Jose »

Captainkirk wrote:
Flatline Bows LLC wrote:What a great thread!! You guys have some great information here. I will not claim to have any of the answers because I find that each bow has its own attitude. Frankly, I gave up on the arrow charts. I found that they were never accurate for true tuning of my bow setup. My limited experience really only comes from shooting bows I have built because they are the only ones I have really shot much since being an adult.
Good to have an expert weigh in! Do you find many people (newbies especially) overbow themselves, or do you think maybe they do, but you never hear the feedback?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I started out with heavier bows but after a shoulder surgery soon shot less poundage.
If I might ask, what caused the shoulder surgery? Was it archery or non-archery related? And if the latter, did archery make it worse?
Flatline Bows LLC wrote: I found that I was killing, just as dead, with my 50 or 51# as I had with my 60-70# bows. IMO a bow weight which is truly comfortable for someone to shoot, with a TUNED arrow and sharp broadhead make a deadly package.
Exactly my point. A sharp, properly-spined arrow from a well-tuned bow is just as deadly as one from a heavier bow in deer sized game (I will take exception for your elk because an elk, moose or bear is a different animal altogether than a deer. Elk and moose are huge framed, large boned animals, and a bear will have you for a snack), and more deadly if you can't shoot the heavy bow as well as a lighter one.
Let that sink in a minute, newbies...the quickest kill is the one in which a wickedly sharp arrow gets to the right spot, rather than a complete pass-thru in the not-so-right spot.
Thanks for the assumption Kirk but I am far from an expert!... ;) I would say that 90% of my customers are experienced in trad archery and already have a good grasp of what they can handle. The newbies to trad which buy my bows are usually receptive to my input on a recommendation for proper bow weight. The one benefit I have is I usually have a variety of bows at different weights around which they can try out. This allows them to experience shooting a bow which may be uncomfortable to them. I can only speak for me personally and will admit that I was over bowed when I started back into the trad. I originally injured my shoulder by dislocating it while playing softball. At that time I shot an 80# compound which did not help things. Gradually it became worse and worse. I transitioned to trad again and assumed that I could easily shoot a 70# bow and be fine. I continued to make my shoulder worse. It soon came time to have surgery and my doctor said I had a large hole in my rotator cuff and had a labrum tear. He performed surgery and told me if I tore it again he would not be able to fix it. He happened to shoot trad too and told me that I needed to shoot lighter weights or I could ultimately injure it and no longer be able to shoot. This was a wake up call...... :( I started shooting lighter weights and found that I did not have pain anymore. I also discovered that my form improved and was not near as sloppy as it was with a heavy bow. For me personally, I was over bowed. I think many people that transition from compound to trad can easily over bow themselves. I do have several good customers who shoot heavy bows. One purchased a 70# and then later an 86#. He has shot for many years and has absolutely perfect form every time. He is a phenomenal shot. I personally do not feel he is over bowed because he can shoot however long he wants without losing his form. I have seen other guys shoot a 45# bow and they struggle getting to anchor. I believe they were over bowed. I feel that there is no specific bow that is to heavy or to light, it just may be to heavy or to light for a particular person. Again, I am no expert, this is just my opinion from personal experience. I am just one of those guys that likes to sling arrows and kill food... :mrgreen: It took several years to find that comfort zone for a bow but now that I have a good idea, I just tweak it here and there for the occasion.

Captainkirk
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#53 Post by Captainkirk »

I've seen the same thing with some guys and high poundage bows. SOME guys! And therein lies the problem! Bows are intensely personal, much more so than guns. When a new archer sees old footage of Howard Hill or Fred Bear drawing an 80# bow...or maybe his granddad who's been shooting for half a century...he figures what's good for the goose is good for the gander and tries to emulate with an equally heavy bow. And then he wonders why he can't hit the broad side of a barn. If the new archer takes anything away from this thread, let it be this:

"One size does not fit all!"

I would strongly urge the new shooter to try as many different draw weights and bow styles as he or she can before dropping the dime. One style/weight will click with you, and odds are about 90% it won't be the first one you buy. That's why there are so many bows for sale cheap on eBay. You either end up with one hell of a collection or take your lumps on the re-sale.
Aim small, miss small!

woodsman
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#54 Post by woodsman »

I had a friend that had bowhunted white-tail deer successfully for many years. After awhile he joined an archery club and enjoyed shooting his compound bow at 3-D ranges.

I received a phone call from him one evening telling me of penetration problems during the archery season. I asked if he had changed anything? Yes... he had went from 2018 to 2114 arrows and Bear Broadheads to a very wide pencil point type broadhead.

He went back to the old set-up and filled his tag the next evening..

A few years later he told me of penetration problems again. He had changed broad heads again.. But the advertisements said it had taken more animals than any other broad head??

Another friend, shooting a 42# longbow shot a 200# dressed weight white tail.. Arrow stopped at the feathers on the EXIT side of the deer. 35 yards.

The arrow/broad head/tune will make more difference than bow weight..

chris

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Shadowhntr
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Re: OH-vur-BOH

#55 Post by Shadowhntr »

woodsman wrote:I had a friend that had bowhunted white-tail deer successfully for many years. After awhile he joined an archery club and enjoyed shooting his compound bow at 3-D ranges.

I received a phone call from him one evening telling me of penetration problems during the archery season. I asked if he had changed anything? Yes... he had went from 2018 to 2114 arrows and Bear Broadheads to a very wide pencil point type broadhead.

He went back to the old set-up and filled his tag the next evening..

A few years later he told me of penetration problems again. He had changed broad heads again.. But the advertisements said it had taken more animals than any other broad head??

Another friend, shooting a 42# longbow shot a 200# dressed weight white tail.. Arrow stopped at the feathers on the EXIT side of the deer. 35 yards.

The arrow/broad head/tune will make more difference than bow weight..

chris

.....that says it all. Thanks for that input Chris.
The element of surprise can never be replaced by persistence.

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